Inexpensive 3-Way TC Ball Valve that is Easily Cleaned

Quote from: hopfenundmalz on October 28, , 09:15:51 pm

Have you considered puting it in an autoclave/pressure cooker to kill bugs?

First, I don't have an autoclave. Second, I never considered pressure cooker, but am wary of over heating and damaging the PTFE, seals, etc. I'd need to check spec sheets specifically, but I think most of these lower cost valves are rated somwhere in the ~240 - 260F range, and an autoclave with steam splits the difference.

Brew day post-brew cleaning is an extended recirculation with PBR followed by 200F water and a final sanitizer rinse through the system. I've measured 190+ sustained surface temp on valves, which ought to sanitize their interiors sufficiently---in effect similar to your autoclave/pressure cooker at lower temp.

It's the gunk build-up that occurs with valves where the ball chamber isn't fully encapsulated that concerns me. If there is anything growing on the accumulation, my approach might not be sufficient to knock it down. An extended trip in an autoclave would solve that, subject to the caveats above, but still leave the gunk behind.

Personally, I like to strip down valves every six or so brew days to clean out any gunk and prevent accumulation. Actually, I have my sons do it as part of brewing with me --- those who would drink must work.

I worked at a commercial brewery as a professional Brewer and I can tell you that we didn&#;t take apart our valves every brew day some of the valves are very hard to get and we took them apart every six months for cleaning for the reasons that you stated and we a lot of piping that had elbows they would have an accumulation in the bends.  we followed the procedure very similar to what you talked about above with an oxidizer or PBW followed by a high temperature rinse and before each brew day we recirculated 200° water through the piping on the cold side for approximately 45 minutes that is a sterilization temperature and will kill beer spoilage organisms.  So I would recommend continuing what you&#;re doing and taking apart your valves twice a year to give them a good scrubbing and replace the software as needed.


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I worked at a commercial brewery as a professional Brewer and I can tell you that we didn&#;t take apart our valves every brew day some of the valves are very hard to get and we took them apart every six months for cleaning for the reasons that you stated and we a lot of piping that had elbows they would have an accumulation in the bends. we followed the procedure very similar to what you talked about above with an oxidizer or PBW followed by a high temperature rinse and before each brew day we recirculated 200° water through the piping on the cold side for approximately 45 minutes that is a sterilization temperature and will kill beer spoilage organisms. So I would recommend continuing what you&#;re doing and taking apart your valves twice a year to give them a good scrubbing and replace the software as needed.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You will get efficient and thoughtful service from Xiangyu.

These days we know 95% of standard carbon steel (A105N, LF2, WCB) trunnion ball valves use China forgings or castings unless demanded otherwise by clients. 100% Italy manufacture (Italy forged ball valves rule the market) is mostly only for specials like metal seat, Duplex, cryogenic, very large sizes, etc. See our post on &#;Forged vs Cast Valves&#; click here. There manufacturers like Starline who only 100% make in Italy with no exceptions but most manufactures offer various solutions. So what are the categories of manufacturing styles other than 100% Italy/European made?

1. China forging but totally made in Italy. (note China forgings are usually machined from equivalent heat treated bar not pressed forgings like in Italy). Also China forged valves often valve inferior cast balls and/or welded in core, not solid ball.
2. Made in China but assembled and tested in Italy (typical where factory inspection demanded at all stages).
3. Made in China 100% but tested in Italy (typical where reseller or end user demands test witness but of course they may often assume valve is totally built in Italy, when it isn&#;t, they are hardly surprised if they find out).
4. Shipped direct from China to reseller (can be blind shipped to disguise origin) from 100% Western owned factory.
5. Totally sub contracted to third party in China using manufactures design but often not their design and no 6D monogram.

As many Italy factories are forced into low prices, they usually don&#;t divulge the true story but a brand name does mean something. A GM or Ford car is made in Thailand or Mexico it&#;s probably still ok if it&#;s a conventional mass produced car made in the manufacturer&#;s 100% owned factory (even though half of the parts are made in China). So there&#;s potential advantages but also pitfalls with the above but the Asian source factory is where it can all go wrong. Here are some scenarios: -

a) Made in manufacturer&#;s 100% owned China plant (very few exist, most use a third party plant and say it&#;s theirs or say it&#;s a joint venture) using Italy manufacturing system, enforcing the use of components from high quality contractors (examples: Western o-ring manufacturers based in China like Hutchinsons - Gaskets International, Western gear boxes made in China like Rotork, etc. Importantly the manufacturer&#;s own design is the one firesafe and fugitive design relates to.

b) Joint venture factory and reduced degrees of above.

c) Sub contractor of factory.

In summary, b) above and c) is where things can go wrong. Sub contractors are not experienced in building someone else&#;s design and they use different origin seats, seals, etc. The contractor keeps components for their own brand and over time developed proficiency in making their own design. Hence to build another design would be risky and dearer and take longer. Then there is no advantage to the Italian principle as their goal is lower price and quicker delivery.

So option b) and especially c) can be regarded a &#;fake valve&#; even if the principal manufacturer imposes some quality control it is not the same design as their Italian valve. Note, some smaller Western &#;brands&#; openly partner with an experienced China trunnion specialist and take the China design (in itself a Grove style copy of a Western design) and get it firesafe tested, etc., they then specify the brand of o-rings, seals and seats, etc., and inspect and verify the quality and manage the documentation so there is nothing wrong with an open sub contractor relationship if the principle manufacturer is truly managing the process and ensuring quality. APV has a J.V. system but then also regularly witness and test in own Adelaide facility before we release to the client. Any actuation & controls, etc., is performed in Adelaide where we can also do in-house PMI, Nitrogen testing, torque testing, painting, etc. We are not marketing that we build a trunnion mounted valve in-house like many Italy manufacturers (which is not the design they ship from China and is not the design used for their firesafe tests). Also, at APV we produce the drawings, certificates and produce our own IOM&#;s & provide a 5 year warranty in Australia we specify the foundry, seat & seal supplier, operator, fixtures, stem materials, soft & metal parts grade, etc. API licensed JV partner/foundry/forge is tranparent. We have also performed extensive firesafe & FE testsm on the actual valve design we are selling. The valve made & advertised and built in the Italy manufacturer's factory may be a totally different valve to the one you may get! So how do you spot a China made & built valve using China design? Worse still a &#;China domestic design&#; (not a Western copy).

Increasingly USA/Italian/other companies are sending valves from China directly to markets like Asia, Australia, etc., (where they often don&#;t particularly care about their brand name reputation) direct from third party China parts. The difference is, it is not the Italy/USA manufacturers own plant. The second major difference is it is not even their own valve design. Even though they do have a valve manufacturer in Italy, most of the time the only thing they produce out of Italy is Duplex or metal seated or specialty cryogenic valves. These days most standard A105, WCB, LF2, is produced in China with significant varying degrees in quality. First of all, the majority of Western companies do not own their own factory in China as this is actually quite expensive and difficult to do, so they use a third party manufacturer and just put their label on it. The reason most don&#;t get a third party valve manufacturer to make their own Italian design is because the manufacturer has no experience with the nuances and technical differences in it&#;s design and they have no economies of scale for the spare parts required to build it. The Chinese manufacturers contractors would have to use special small runs of different seat, seal types, etc. The China plant factory is inexperienced with the exact tolerances and problems that may be encountered with the slightly different design. So it is far easier and safer to take the China manufacturer&#;s own design, which may or may not be reasonable quality, but it&#;s certainly not as good as an Italian built design, and then slap their label on it. Chinese manufacturers tend to use their own sister and related factories for spare parts in China whereas Italian manufacturers who have their own plant in China use Western spare parts supplies such as o-rings, seats, seals, etc., from Western factories that are manufacturing in China as their design is built around these brands and they are familiar with the quality of the product. Other than the fact that it&#;s deceitful, the problem with getting a China built valve is the firesafe certificate, the fugitive emission certificate, etc., is not based on this valve. It is based on the Italian company&#;s own valve. Also, even if China contractor has a firesafe certificate, if you check it you&#;ll see it doesn&#;t show: -

• Class, size & material coverage range
• Drawing number
• Model number & valve style
• Body type

See our post on &#;China vs Italy Manufacturing&#; click here.

Straight away your insurance contract would be void if there was a problem with this valve. Of course there are many Western brands that actually use a high quality Chinese manufacturer&#;s design and send that design for all the tested required, etc., and that is the design they sell and market from scratch and they openly declare a joint venture arrangement etc., is in place and they do have their own quality layer on top so there are many different models at different price points to achieve the design. When it becomes purely fraudulent the manufacturer leads you to believe it is their Italian designed and built valve, when in fact it is not and you are still paying a premium price for a lesser valve.

How to tell the difference between an Italian designed valve, designed and built (whether it be built in Italy or in the Italian company&#;s own factory can make little difference in A105 material as there are a few reputable Italian & USA owned companies that own factories in China building 100% to their standard as they do in Italy).

OTHER QUALITY ISSUES

Of course if you check the firesafe certificate you will find the drawing for the firesafe certificate of the Italian valves is for two piece but you&#;ll find the valves that you often get delivered are a three piece. So immediately there is a glaring warning sign that you&#;re not getting the same valve made by the Italian manufacture. In our business we see this sort of thing all the time so we know immediately there is a problem what has gone one. This is another reason you should order through an experienced and reputable valve reseller who knows what to look for and who knows how to run the gauntlet. A lot of Italian manufacturers are setting up offices in Australia and Asia Pacific and are just dumping China valves into Australia from sub contractors which they change every year so you&#;re not even getting any commonality and spare parts traceability can become a nightmare in years to come.

Of course when you pull the valve apart it is a whole different world. Spare parts don&#;t fit as Chinese custom/force fit poor tolerance parts to get valve to pass test. This is not to say there are not many Chinese manufacturers that make good quality valves. Provided you stick with commodity sizes and classes up to 250mm and stick to stock standard seats and seals etc., a few Chinese manufacturers are reasonable quality. The problem most of them have is they&#;re not trunnion ball valve specialists, which Italian manufacturers of course are. The minute you tell them to specify different seats and o-rings and seals which they are not familiar with problems can start to arise, especially in the higher pressure. Once again there are a few higher level Chinese ball valve manufacturers than can handle the higher specification and if you&#;re going through a valve expert they can help guide you through the gauntlet using their experience and their buying power. Also, click here to see our post on &#;Leaking, Low Cost Ball Valves contributing chaos in our atmosphere&#;. The main thing is, it&#;s important to know what you&#;re getting and know someone is standing behind it, being responsible for the valve. Not someone that doesn&#;t even have a registered business entity and is just selling into Australia through a middle man who can take no responsibility at all should there be problem, without a legal recourse for yourself. Legally the reseller can just pass responsibility onto the Chinese manufacturer they use. Unless your supplier has product liability insurance within Australia and are putting an Australian brand name on the valve you have very little security that the manufacturer or his agent&#;s going to do the right thing by you.

Global Supply Line have the optimum team of brands for the full range of valve types. We can supply 100% Italian made Shell approved brands such as Starline. We&#;re also agents for true weld valve manufacturers; JC and Sferova who have plants all around the world that they 100% own. They offer full 100% European manufacturer on lower sizes and classes or in less critical material grades they offer 100% manufacturer in their overseas plants, also provide hybrid solutions for European made valves with components sourced from their own overseas factories. Then we can offer Australian Pipeline Valve, which specialises in separating itself from the pack and supplying high quality trunnion mounted ball valves with Western drawings, certification, IOMs, full product liability in Australia, back up service and support with a 5 year warranty. Part of the reason for APV&#;s existence is current dissatisfaction in the market with the quality levels of Asian brands, whilst at the same time many companies do not want to pay the high prices and long delivery from the multinational manufacturers. Australian Pipeline Valve manufacturers a selected range of trunnion mounted ball valves in a select range of sizes, classes & material and sources according to the criticality of the valve and our Adelaide facility is fully capable of doing submerged tank nitrogen test, PMI, etc. We are now in the process of obtaining NATA certificate for our Adelaide facility and API6D/APIQ1 certificate in APV name for our J.V. facility. Our API6D/APIQ1 licensed joint venture partners are the best in the game and we have strong quality standards imposed on our sub contractors by our APV inspectors and quality staff. All APV&#;s valves are made to APV materials and specifications which surpass those supplied by low cost operators. Global Supply Line can package up the ultimate combination of brands to resolve any project at a reasonable price with good quality costs aboard utilising all the manufacturers we represent.

Millions of junk trunnion mounted ball valves are produced, mostly coming out of Wenzhou China every year and sold under thousands of Chines & Western brand names. There are of course some reputable Chines manufacturers closer to Shanghai and Chengdu area, not to mention 100% Western owned Chinese plants which manufacture good quality European spec valve, not to be confused with hundreds of Western brands that simply badge their name on 100% China valve that is nor of their design and has not been inspected, witnessed/tested or fugitive emission design tested or design firesafe tested by them.

As trunnion mounted ball valves are the most critical valve with the most that can go wrong (due to moving parts, sort seat and elastomers, etc.), this is the valve that is of most interest to valve purchasing staff and causes the most problems. Trunnion ball valves is the area where you should pay most focus on quality out of all standard commodity valves. Particularly since, in this day and age they are also actuated, which adds an even higher quality factor to the valve. Once again, with an actuated valve 99% of the time if there i a problem (other than the very common problem of under sizing the actuator) it is never a quality problem with the actuator, it is always a problem with the valve, of the valve being the wrong valve for the service (or poor assembly).

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Recently up to half of Chinese factories have been stripped of their API6D license! Aside from poor procedures they also cheat and get API6D for their Shanghai plant (for example) and build ball valves in their non 6D Wenzhou plant! In the last 10 years, major USA valve brands have had huge problems as their system is to buy the complete valve from a China contractor (even when the USA/Italy valve manufacturer does have their own factory they frequently get overloaded and have to outsource somebody else&#;s valve in order to keep the order, bear in mind most of these decision makers of the organisations are sales people, not manufacturing/quality/engineering people) or if you&#;re lucky a J.V. with their badge on it. It&#;s usually not even their design so the firesafe certificate is technically not valid.

At the end of the day, order from a Western brand name that has a local warranty point and major sales/service/stockist agent in your country. Both the brand and the reseller should be responsible for sorting any problems out in your own country. If they are, they&#;ll usually ensure there are no problems! Global Supply Line is the sole agent and the authorised service, set & automation and stock in centre for all the brands we represent. In addition we have full in-house engineering, paint, test & automation facility. We can even do in-house PMI and any type of test including submerged tank Nitrogen test.

See Global Supply Line and Australian Pipeline Valve&#;s points of difference on ball valves, GSL APV.

Here is a drawing of a class valve. See the Nylon (or PEEK) o-ring back up rings. See the superior materials (F51 in lieu of 316).

Note PEEK or PTFE back up o-rings for high pressure. Note internal integral trunnion on Italy valves larges sizes.

Also note internal trunnion, direct mount gearbox, triple barrier stem seal (not packed like others). Also note on 316 the trunnion is 316SS. Only one body join means less potential leak points.

Flush mount gearbox triple barrier stem seal. APV-Diamond Gear gearbox, inside or compact trunnion (depending on size, class) 316SS fittings.

JC use sealant injection per seat on larger sizes. (Also insurance in case of blockage). Note 316 trunnion for &#;316 Trim&#; (others use A105+ENP). In fact, in large sizes & higher classes 316 is substituted for XM19/F51/17-4PH/N-50, etc., due to strength.

100% Italy made!

China use spiral body gaskets, RPTFE seats even on larger sizes, often gland packed not triple barrier stem seal, parts missing from drawing, open bracket gearbox even on larger sizes, etc.

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Australian Pipeline Valve - short lead time, high quality oil and gas valve manufacturer. Specialising in short runs and supplying high specification valves. Click here to view and bookmark our catalogues. Click here to join the APV Group. Click here to follow our APV company page for frequent updates.

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